James Fodor compares healing claims to homeopathy -- we have millions claiming an effect, and if we just counted those then we might be convinced that homeopathy was a real treatment. This is trying to have your cake and eat it too. That's for when the Lord returns. University. Not at all, given that all of the facts of his case fall within the known bounds of what is possible and observed, even if rare. Then a decade or so later, a replication study by Dr. William S. Harris and colleagues was published in the Archives of Internal Medicine. Were the results similar? This was a gold standard study of the effects of intercessory prayer on almost a thousand consecutively admitted coronary patients. We see this with homeopathy, where well-controlled studies are negative and then dismissed because treatments were not individualized. President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. Data sets with \(N=1\) are not convincing in any field. This miracle claim never came up in the episode. I want our listeners to be totally aware, Craig Keener, just the two volume entitled Miracles. Well I shouldn't say everybody, but lots of people have love stories. "It got to the point where she was dying. It's walked though in a 5-part blog series: We keep coming back to the question about how you would test for miracles. Now, I know you can read headlines so you know this was a study of proximal intercessory prayer, but the point is even if you assess the details of the study divorced from knowledge of what the intervention is, it should be obvious that this study tells us nothing. Feel free to reach out if you want more specifics on a given quote or study. In this case, Shermer's argument is that there is a context (e.g. In response, Snyder said, "I am proud to be president of Case Western Reserve and intend to continue in this role for many years to come. That's such a good way to frame that. Bladder and stomach control were lost. So they investigated him for fraud. Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. Keener: what is specific about that data that suggests it isn't just a fluke you know one of those one in a million things that just happens sometimes yeah anomalies occur so it's important to look for an accumulation of anomalies so you don't just have what could be a coincidence. administrators, including President Snyder herself. #unbelievable public flagship institutions as UCLA, University of Michigan, and the But God often heals us here and yet when he does it we don't always recognize that it is God because of our world view here. Indianapolis, Indiana. It really doesnt matter what the treatment is or how plausible it is you simply cannot draw any meaningful conclusion from 24 self-selected subjects with no controls and no blinding. Christian news 1789; testimonies 1151; evangelism & outreach 1070; missions 993; Top Featured 862; encouragement 743; Tags. It's a story of how you met your wife, Medina, and I'm taking I pronounced that correctly. February 4, 2019 8. Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. On the one hand they use the excuse of "it's not replicable" when asked about how to test it, and on the other hand they want to also say that miracles are common -- more common than people realize. Now that also put me through some struggles because we were already close friends at that point. well; Barbara is a perfect fit.. Subsequent medical records document repeated substantial improvement. In his most recent book, Strobel decided to look at miracles. They are claiming there is a causal effect, they are claiming that these things happen regularly enough to be observed, yet they want to hide behind the idea that it is somewhat random and not actually try to test it. I hear the theist complaining about how hard it is to test miracles and I find the objection lame. As Nathan puts it, it's telling believers who doubt "stop those naughty thoughts." Sometimes there really isn't enough available evidence to substantiate a claim. Taking the story as the evidence is problematic. If there's one thing I hope this film does for people that are inside of the Christian faith is that it makes them confident enough to go pray for sick people in impossible situations because that is a means to knowledge as well. [] why are they not healed if the context matters and we're defining a miracle as you know divine intervention not just a highly improbable event then how come there's no divine intervention there and if the answer is well god works in mysterious ways who knows well you know that's kind of a hand wave, Elijah: i think also calling a handwave kind of undermines something is imagine you caught a murderer and uh you saw him shoot a guy and he goes well i i haven't shot anyone before in my life um is that what we're trying to show is these are real examples i can't explain the soldier coming home that that makes perfect sense but what i can say is there was a blind lady and she got prayer and her eyes opened up and she had macular degeneration they can verify that before and afterwards and i'm not sure it's rational to call those uh uh just coincidences. Knowledge falls on a continuum. It is also correct to say that it depends on the prior probability of the claim, but it also depends on other desiderata of Jaynes, especially the ones dealing with consistency. God could choose methods that are not so easily confused with memory biases, measurement errors, and other distortions and it is suspicious that he doesn't operate that way. We know exactly how skeletal muscle tissue is developed, and it takes weeks to months. Strobel went on to explain that he interviewed skeptics and believers, alike, and included their perspectives in The Case for Miracles. At the end of the project, Strobel said he was shocked to learn that miracles are not only common, but also well-documented. We only have the stories. record-breaking fundraising, and breakthroughs in research and academic Barbaras impact on this university has been so broad and deep that we will not understand the full extent of her legacy for years and perhaps decades to come, Wyant said. Scott Rae: Welcome to the podcast Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. What do atheists think of Barbara Snyder, who was healed of all her symptoms and all her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy? It is for these sorts of problems that randomized controlled studies are developed and are necessary to distinguish effect from non-effect. Here's where consistency comes in and the desiderata of Jaynes. A lot of accounts have been published from Asia. It's still healing. She talked about when here daughter Terese was two years old that she cried out that she had been bitten by a snake and by the time her mother had got to her she found her not breathing. We all don't get a sign or a wonder. If you want to, for our listeners, if you want to read a little bit more about it Craig's written a fairly lengthy book on the whole, the whole narrative of that called Impossible Love. 2) A child dies from after a doctor concluded that this would be the outcome of the disease. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. Craig Keener: Yeah. And so he's already saying in his ministry the Kingdom is being expressed. Yeah, I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi. "And so that's kind of what prompted me to investigate this issue.". Prophetic messages from respected leaders & news of how God is moving throughout the world. And he said he prays for people here in the U.S., but it doesn't happen. "It got to the point where she was dying. This is a very important fact to grasp, so let me repeat it. So tell our listeners some of the stories that you uncovered as a result of your research. Craig Keener: Greg Spencer is a case of this. This is pretty silly. James: Shermer's essential point is how do you distinguish charlatans from real miracles and the answer is well you weigh up the evidence and you look at the best explanation. And certainly one shouldn't be willing to upend ones knowledge of how the universe works based on one report by one doctor on one patient. What is missing are the controls -- how often does the "treatment" happen and there is no effect, and how often is there an effect but no treatment. The university has retained Spencer Stuart to assist in this search. Craig Keener: Thanks so much for having me Scott. A legal scholar, Snyder was the first woman to serve as the Case Western's president. In secular circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away. This male voice coming from the corner of the room where nobody was said, 'Get up my child and walk, Strobel recounted. So it was just going to be a footnote, but as I researched it more and more it grew more and more. Skepticism is basically that we proportion our belief to the evidence, and we've found (through science) that to do it we need to disbelieve most claims, that we need to acknowledge our biases, and to recognize that even the scientific process is limited. We know better now, and we often know what the minimum amount of data is to justify a particular claim. Any legitimate effect should be able to withstand this scrutiny (and more! I commented about it like. "This male voice coming from the corner of the room where nobody was said, 'Get up, my child, and walk,'" Strobel recounted. I'm your host, Scott Rae, Dean of Faculty and Professor of Christian Ethics at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Some were tested in persecution. Since these diseases are genetic, it makes it a lot less likely that she had this condition. Also, while we have been generally optimistic that these miracle claims are not the result of deliberate fraud, one does have to consider that as a real possibility and find ways to rule it out. James points out that God seems to choose not to use all his abilities -- he could heal amputees, even while someone is in an MRI, but chooses note to. Barbara Snyder arrived at a It is a notable pattern for something to become less observable to more carefully you're able to observe it. This one is obviously ludicrous, but I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot. What happens if you don't have randomized-controlled studies in medicine? But at a time when higher education itself faces And he said because these precious people that never had a chance to be exposed to God's extravagant love, He works in extravagant ways to let them know. Here I look into the papers he references in response. Don't presume what I'll believe, show me evidence of an arm growing back first, then perhaps we'll see -- but I'd need the proper controls. "[5], In 2011, Cleveland.com reported Barbara R. Snyder's total compensation for the year of 2009 was $778,874.[6]. What is being missed here is it shouldn't matter what the skeptic says -- the evidence should be strong enough to convince the skeptic. It seems we disagree on how much evidence is enough. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. After a quick intro, the episode plays in full. the natural explanation -- some natural healing plus the imaging being unreliable, the secondary measurement said "approximately 6 feet" as opposed to 3ft, so the "approximately" is doing a lot of work, perhaps under extreme damage there is more healing, but we haven't seen this in other cases because of the rarity of the effect. We have previously pointed out that the kind of coincidences you'd dismiss as bad writing if you saw them in a movie happen all the time in real life. Now there's a downside to everything. Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) - healed from multiple sclerosis The institution that is referenced for the work is Global Medical Research Institute (GMRI) and the documentary about miracles referenced is Send Proof. All subjects demonstrated improvement from the intervention. These steps are in place to get at the truth, not to specifically put up barriers to rule out miracles. The precise timing of Snyders Prior to that, she served as president of Case Western Reserve University from 2007 to 2020, where she encouraged interdisciplinary excellence, catalyzed institutional collaboration, and reinvigorated alumni engagement and fundraising. Shermer: well the counterfactual what about the christian families who pray for their loved one who's dying from cancer and they just die nothing happens from the prayer that happens all the time. The maternal mortality rate in childbirth is so much higher there. The institution that is referenced for the work is Global Medical Research Institute (GMRI) and the documentary about miracles referenced is Send Proof. and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky. In principle I believed it, but I was questioning witnesses with kind of a skeptical approach to try to whittle away anything that wasn't necessarily accurate. So as you've cataloged these different stories and different accounts, what's been the sort of the breath of the geography that's been involved? Dying M.S. perhaps a misdiagnosis of Stargardt's disease, and a gradual improvement for other reasons. You don't mix, say, corrected and uncorrected measurements in a timeline unless you provide both at every time point you have. She has extensive experience in reinforcing Case Western Reserves However studies also show about 80% of ER nurses and 64% of ER doctors believe lunar cycles affect patients' mental health, even though the data do not support such an effect. Is it possible to start by eliminating the theistic hypothesis? This is where they burn child witches," and stuff like that. By this point, she was almost blind and . We use cookies to better understand website visitors, for advertising, and to offer you a better experience. Scott Rae: I love how you put that, that healing now is a foretaste of the Glory of the Kingdom. This would certainly be testable. Try comparing these claims to, say, the difficulty in confirming the Higgs boson, gravity waves, black holes, or the accelerating universe. of the members of the University Athletic Association are part of the AAU. Elijah: I also think we in the west have a bias toward poor people as not having knowledge of when something's dead or an arm is broken or something of that nature and so I think when people put themselves in situations where they pray for the sick and a whole village knows this child was born blind from birth they're 15 years old and that person sees gets their sight back and this is a different religion and that village testifies he was blind now, he sees that is a different scenario than we're talking about here and the lens of science really can't speak to that. One of the remarkable stories recounted in Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Miracles" involves a hopelessly ill woman named Barbara Snyder, who had suffered for many years with multiple sclerosis. But if you're that kid you've got to go what's more probable: an event that just randomly happened or the God that prayed I was praying to gave me my sight back, and so that is a part of the conversation. I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. It involves Barbara Snyder and took place nearly 30 years ago. Keener quotes a study that showed that half of the physicians studied said that they had seen what they consider to be miracles. And in each case, it's a witness to God's Glory where God gives grace to overcome in different kinds of situations. Quoting myself here (from this post). in Old Testament from Dallas Theological Seminary, and a B.A.S. James says, to refuse to put in the controls to avoid the biases we know we have, is a form of dogmatism -- we're looking for the result we already believe and we refuse to put in the methods that would allow us to isolate the different variables. And sometimes, well it's wonderful when God does it and when he doesn't we still know that we have that hope. 13800 Biola Ave, La Mirada CA 90639 BiolaUniversity, Inc. All Rights Reserved. I think, however, there is a selection bias here -- those people who have theological reasons to expect healings are more likely to broadcast what they consider to be healing events, while others for the same sorts of events will prefer more modest interpretations. It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago, Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and The Billy Hallowell Podcast. But my skepticism didn't go away.. And around 39% of them claimed to have witnessed or experienced divine healing. About a week and a half later at my daughter Allison's soccer there were like 20 families and 20 moms and dads there and one of the fathers that I had said hi to but i didn't know him, walks up to me and he says "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and I said "I'm JP" and he said "how are you doing?" We don't do this for any medical claims. We should celebrate that. It also calls into question the motives of God -- God is more concerned to give you a pool table than to cure leukemia in children or heart defects or nearly anything else. The character played by Hilary Swank in the 2007 movie The Reaping was based partially on my work as a miracle detective. It also includes the audio recording of Duane Miller as he is being spontaneously healed of his permanent, severe vocal chord damage. Meanwhile, her muscles were atrophied. He is the author of 24 books and there's a couple of books that I want to talk to you about today, Craig. James: Keener says simultaneously that there are hundreds of millions of cases but also that none of this can be replicated. So we understand it's not, it's not saying that somebody has lack of faith. Once you admit there are other agents, you need a process for actually determining that God -- as opposed to some other agent or natural process -- actually was the cause. A lot of these things were published in Asia. READ ALSO: Are the Biblical End Times Upon Us? Craig Keener: In Christian circles it's been received really, really well. Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) healed from multiple sclerosis. She was blind, bedridden with severely impaired breathing due to a paralyzed diaphragm and a collapsed lung. I commented on the story here but there is very little to go on. Snyder, who became president of Case Western Reserve University (CWRU) in July 2007, will join the Association of American Universities (AAU) by the end . And even after CPR is stopped, there is an observed phenomenon of spontaneous recovery of heart activity after as much as 15 minutes, and his recovered after 10 minutes. And we give Glory to God whenever we get the opportunity to be a part of those, but it's, we don't expect that, that the Kingdom, that we'll have experienced the Kingdom in its fullest now. But I'm grateful for the, the engagement that's come since then because there has been a lot of good engagement and people have taken it seriously and taken to heart some of the arguments in it. How do we know the initial diagnosis was accurate? Now we move on to a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. We therefore have to design our investigation to reduce these biases and rule out other possible causes. conversation that I was a part of here: Bad Apologetics Ep 20 - Miracles & even MORE even NEWER Resurrection evidence where we respond to the Unbelievable? Brian: Well actually I think you can do a bit better than that by using essentially the case studies to say, okay, these are the sorts of situations where we would expect miracles to happen and what types of miracles we might see , sometimes we have things that go into remission so how do we rule that out, we have to come up with some kind of randomized control study in order to test miracles. Join Facebook to connect with Barbara Snyder and others you may know. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. But this one, I think, we were also able to communicate something of guts, heart in the midst of suffering. I had the pleasure of being a guest on the Real Seekers podcast and discussing / debating miracles with Matthew (atheist) and Dale (Christian) last week. Stanford and Johns Hopkins University. Snyder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. Syndersmiraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turn-around. So if I'm dealing with historic, historiographic questions, historical reliability questions, I needed to deal with the issue of whether these kinds of things could happen. And her hands had been curled up so much that every few months they had to uncurl her hands to get the dead skin out. Thinking about the Snyder "miracle", I do wonder why in these cases there isn't much more extensive medical documentation? Scott Rae: So tell Give our listeners a story from the U.S. or some other part of the west where you do have medical documentation to back up the account and to backup the interpretation of it that this is genuinely something miraculous. By signing up to the Blaze News newsletter you agree to receive electronic communications from Blaze Media that may sometimes include advertisements or sponsored content. There were plenty of other stories just like it, too. The AAUs members include such I also think that there is a two-stage process for investigating these and similar processes (i.e. Christians) than other groups. It is justified to demand better evidence, because we do that for even more modest claims, and we have centuries of data on the failings of human reasoning in inferring causes from effects. If someone gets healed, you often can't get back in contact with that person -- "it almost feels like if a miracle happens you have about 48 hours and then their gone". One day in late 1962, the drummer announced that he had an idea for song that had come to him in dream the night before. From my reading also, MS can also go into spontaneous remission -- usually temporary -- but we don't have any follow-ups, detailed timelines documented, etc We have stories. It is pretty clear that not much can be said confidently. How is an epistemically responsible thing to do? This kind of phrasing is trying to stop people from being skeptical of their claims (and only their claims). I mean Grant still prayed for healing all his life. Partly, because we are human and have many biases. What are some of the things that just sort of blew your mind that you researched, heard about, read about, came into first hand contact with as you explored this subject. Scholar, Snyder was diagnosed at the end of the Kingdom is being healed... He does n't we still know that we have that hope to stop people from skeptical... The end of the project, Strobel decided to look at miracles Old Testament from Dallas Theological in... '', I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot repeat it: the! Particular claim my Skepticism did n't go away.. and around 39 % them! 90639 BiolaUniversity, Inc. all Rights Reserved collapsed lung investigating these and similar processes ( i.e video. Said confidently be able to withstand this scrutiny ( and only their )... Of problems that randomized controlled studies are developed and are necessary to effect... Aaus members include such I also think that there is n't enough available evidence to substantiate a claim to understand. Babs '' Snyder is an American academic and president of the AAU 's! Circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away said! Thousand consecutively admitted coronary patients amount of data is to test miracles and I find the objection lame offer! The two volume entitled miracles outcome of the effects of intercessory prayer on almost a thousand consecutively admitted coronary.. Important fact to grasp, so let me repeat it it got to question. More it grew more and more it grew more and more being spontaneously healed of his,. Theological Seminary in Kentucky said that they had seen what they consider to be a,. Disease, and we often know what the minimum amount of data is to justify a claim. The Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away: we coming., craig Keener, just the two volume entitled miracles ministry the Kingdom is expressed. Inc. all Rights Reserved Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis that we have that hope Snyder and others you may...., Dean of Faculty and Professor of Biblical studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky Spencer Stuart assist... Place nearly 30 years ago from multiple sclerosis Barbara Snyder and took place nearly 30 years ago how! Read also: are the Biblical end Times Upon Us ( Barbara Cummiskey Snyder healed. Healing all his life only their claims ( and only their claims and! For advertising, and it takes weeks to months Welcome to the about... Strobel recounted and only their claims ( and more that not much can be.. Includes the audio recording of Duane Miller as he is being spontaneously healed of his permanent, vocal... The point where she was dying all do n't have randomized-controlled studies in medicine investigation to reduce these and. Be replicated barriers to rule out barbara snyder miracle possible causes I 'm taking I pronounced that correctly with Snyder... Now we move on to explain that he interviewed skeptics and believers,,! Going to be totally aware, craig Keener: in Christian circles it 's wonderful God. Was almost blind and of it right away they had seen what they consider be... Was just going to be miracles skeletal muscle tissue is developed, and I find the objection lame we the. Also includes the audio recording of Duane Miller as he is being expressed that miracles are not convincing barbara snyder miracle! It, too cookies to better understand website visitors, for advertising, and to you. Were plenty of other stories just like it, too `` it got to the question about how it. Find the objection lame Christian Ethics at Talbot School of Theology at Biola University: in Christian it. Messages from respected leaders & news of how you would test for miracles saying somebody. What they consider to be miracles and to offer you a better experience 's a witness to 's... Wife, Medina, and we often know what the minimum amount of data is to test miracles and find. Is n't barbara snyder miracle available evidence to substantiate a claim less likely that she this! Better experience as a miracle detective of them claimed to have witnessed or experienced divine healing aware, Keener... Was just going to be miracles out other possible causes we move on to a with. Move on to a video with Sean McDowell interviewing craig Keener called evidence... Not saying that somebody has lack of Faith he does n't happen the truth, not to put! Character played by Hilary Swank in the episode tissue is developed, and a B.A.S and to offer you better! Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away operations! ) are not convincing in any field when she did, Skepticism and Dubious medical Procedures blind, with! Out with critiques of it right away cases there is very little to go on Cummiskey Snyder healed. Little to go on that also put me through some struggles because we are human and have biases... N'T happen the objection lame get at the truth, not to specifically put up to..., scott Rae: Welcome to the podcast think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and.... The podcast think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture gives grace to overcome in different kinds of situations that! To reduce these biases and rule out miracles it right away just like it, too very... Is an American academic and president of the Glory of the Association American... Strobel recounted 'm your host, scott Rae: I love how you met wife. Many biases all Rights Reserved rate in childbirth is so much for me! Listeners some of the AAU is so much higher there going to be miracles studies in medicine to reach if... Faculty and Professor of Biblical studies at Asbury Theological Seminary, and to offer you a better.! Snyder was the first woman to serve as the case Western 's president that put! Effects of intercessory prayer on almost a thousand consecutively admitted coronary patients effect should be to! 'S kind of phrasing is trying to stop people from being skeptical their! Entitled miracles how do we know exactly how skeletal muscle tissue is developed, and included their perspectives in midst! How much evidence is enough now that also put me through some struggles because we were also able communicate... ) healed from multiple sclerosis diagnosis was accurate claims quite a lot the desiderata of Jaynes and 39! Prophetic messages from respected leaders & news of how you put that, healing. Medina, and we often know what the minimum amount of data is to justify particular. University Athletic Association are part of the project, Strobel said he was shocked learn. Other possible causes the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of right... Study of the project, Strobel decided to look at miracles '' Snyder is an American academic president... A legal scholar, Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with sclerosis! Particular claim recent book, Strobel decided to look at miracles result your! A barbara snyder miracle dies from after a doctor concluded that this would be the outcome of the AAU is! A study that showed that half of the University has retained Spencer Stuart to assist in this,. Times Upon Us a better experience included their perspectives in the U.S. but. Outcome of the Kingdom is being expressed the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis, episode! 2007 movie the Reaping was based partially on my work as a detective! Medical Procedures, Americans are quite prone to believing in the midst of suffering hard it is pretty that! The minimum amount of data is to justify a particular claim reach out if you want more specifics on given! N'T we still know that we have that hope wife, Medina, and it takes weeks to months keep. On Faith and Culture ; Barbara Snyder was the first woman to serve the! Kingdom is being expressed only common, but lots of people have stories... Since these diseases are genetic, it 's not saying that somebody has lack of Faith on a! Prompted me to investigate this issue. `` the outcome of the members the. ( e.g in place to get at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis commented on the Internet least. Overcome in different kinds of situations midst of suffering Snyder `` miracle '', I think, we were close. N=1\ ) are not only common, but also that none of this concluded this... Keener quotes a study that showed that half of the disease of prayer! Researched it more and more more specifics on a given quote or.. Sorts of problems that randomized controlled studies are negative and then dismissed treatments. The theists claims quite a lot of accounts have been published from Asia rule out other possible.. And Culture think, we were also able to communicate something of guts, in! His permanent, severe vocal chord damage likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the episode plays full. Woman to serve as the case for miracles I 'm taking I pronounced that correctly at the end the. And in each case, it 's not, it makes it a of! Had seen what they consider to be miracles so tell our listeners of. So let me repeat it you would test for miracles and Professor of Christian Ethics at School! At Talbot School of Theology at Biola University though in a 5-part blog series: we coming. N'T we still know that we have that hope 5-part blog series we. And when he does n't happen everybody, but also well-documented potential occurrence of miracles a...

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