a red or purple blister at the puncture site. Healthline has strict sourcing guidelines and relies on peer-reviewed studies, academic research institutions, and medical associations. Headache. JAMA Dermatol. You can take steps to prevent spider bites. Symptoms begin within 3 weeks of a bite and . The average spider bite will lead to itchy red bumps. If the wound feels warm to touch (if it's hot, the wound is likely infected). Necrosis occurs because the venom kills small vessels, called capillaries, that provide blood to surrounding tissues. Outside, they seek out dry, dark, quiet spots, such as under rocks or in tree stumps. Other signs and spider bite symptoms include: chills, fever, muscle cramps, and gastrointestinal symptoms such as nausea, vomiting and severe abdominal pain. Symptoms of a Spider Bite Most spider bites cause local pain, redness and swelling. For instance, if you have a lighter skin tone, a harmless spider bite will likely cause red or pink discoloration. Brown recluse and black widow spiders are most active between April and October when the weather is warmer and drier. Chills. A brown recluse spider bite usually heals within eight weeks. Reduce clutter and debris around your homes property, including rock or wood piles. In: Adult Telephone Protocols: Office Version. An open sore (ulcer) that causes necrosis (tissue death). Occupational Safety and Health Administration. A recent Australian study has shown no evidence linking necrotic ulcers (destroyed skin) to . The bite of a Brazilian wandering spider is extremely painful. Helpful if spider seen on the skin or around the child Cause of Spider Bite Reactions Most spiders have tiny fangs. A few children get life-threatening anaphylaxis after insect bites or stings. Often, people aren't aware of insect bites immediately, but later notice a small bump or red spot. privacy practices. If you have a darker skin tone, a nonvenomous might look reddish brown, Dr. Ascher says. You're unsure whether the bite was from a dangerous spider. Any use of this site constitutes your agreement to the Terms and Conditions and Privacy Policy linked below. Before you let the mere thought of spiders spike your anxiety, know this: Most spider bites are totally harmless and only a few spider species have fangs long enough to pierce human skin. One person who had a bite from a Cupiennius coccineus spider said they felt an intense, bee sting-like pain as the fangs penetrated, followed by pain and numbness for 10 minutes. The swelling may last 7 days. In others, this venom can trigger a life-threatening allergic reaction. Brown recluse spider bites can cause a blister that's surrounded by either a bruise or reddish skin around the outside. Brown recluse and black widow spiders. American Osteopathic College of Dermatology, American Academy of Dermatology Association, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Michael Menna, DO, is a board-certified, active attending emergency medicine physician at White Plains Hospital in White Plains, New York. Some of the same signs may apply to other spider bites. Most of these deaths occur in children. You can also apply an ice pack wrapped in a towel to reduce pain, swelling, and itching, as recommended by the American Academy of Dermatology Association (AAD). For some people, healing can take up to 10 days. Though some spider bites can cause a small, red bump, a lesion with a red inflamed center is not suggestive of a venomous spider bite. It can also be hard to tell the difference between a spider bite reaction and a serious infection called community-acquired methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). Most spider bites occur during mating season from late summer into fall. Is Your Mosquito Bite Reaction Actually an Allergy? Fang marks (tiny twin holes): These are telltale signs that are only visible right after the bite happens, before any swelling or redness occurs. Wear long sleeves and pants in wooded areas. Spider bites tend to have a central puncture area where the stinger was inserted. Itching, redness, and swelling are among the most common signs of a spider bite. Brown recluse spider. They are most active in the warmer months. Take an over-the-counter pain reliever for pain and swelling. With a spider bite, the fangs injure the skin, which triggers inflammation and swelling. It spits venomous silk on top of it and paralyzes the small insects or spiders that it hunts. Blood in urine. Army Public Health Center. Usually only 1/2 inch long, it has a stout, hairy body. Brown Recluse Spider bites may produce a range of symptoms known as 'loxoscelism' (a condition produced by the bite and characterized by a gangrenous slough at the site of bite, nausea, malaise, fever, hemolysis and . Symptoms start off flu-like and progress to coughing, fever, shortness of breath, shaking chills, headache, loss of sense of taste and/or smell, muscle pain, and sore throat. Brown recluse spider bites can cause painful, purplish blisters that break open into ulcers. Scorpions. Thank you, {{form.email}}, for signing up. Among these are widow spiders, with about 30 species, and recluse spiders, with more than 140 species worldwide. It might get red, itchy, and swell up a bit. Although more than 50 spiders in the United States have venom, their bites are usually not serious and may only cause mild redness, swelling, and pain. Policy. Spider bites can cause redness, pain and swelling, or you might not notice them at all. Neurologia. This headache may last for a week. Bites from more venomous spiders . Their bite will feel like a bee sting. J Med Toxicol. It's not uncommon for someone to think they have a spider bite when they really have a skin infection. What You Should Know About a Bug Bite Bruise, How to Treat Insect Bites and Spider Stings, Necrosis Causes and Symptoms in the Human Body, Brown recluse and black widow spider bites in children, Neurotoxic manifestations of black widow spider envenomation in paediatric patients, Fatal mistake? A single copy of these materials may be reprinted for noncommercial personal use only. Symptoms and signs of spider bites Use a cool compress on the bite for no longer than 15 minutes at a time to reduce pain and swelling. Toxicon. Rarely, a spider bite can cause an allergic reaction that doctors call "anaphylactic shock." It can be fatal. Nausea and vomiting. weakness. Shake your shoes, hats and gloves to check for spiders before putting them on. 2015;21:24. doi:10.1186/s40409-015-0028-5. Learn what dangerous spiders look like and their preferred habitats. Spiders perform a vital function by eating insects that can destroy crops. Loxosceles reclusa - Brown Recluse The brown recluse, loxosceles reclusa, is one of the more dangerous spiders indigenous in the United States. We do not endorse non-Cleveland Clinic products or services. In the case of a black widow bite, if youre experiencing severe pain or other life-threatening symptoms (more on that in a second), youll need to head to the ER to potentially receive antivenom, which is given intravenously. Spiders usually bite only in defense, when being trapped between your skin and another object. Don't apply ice for longer than 15 to 20 minutes at a time. If you are a Mayo Clinic patient, this could This is a picture of a brown recluse spider bite. Headache. Brown recluse spider bite symptoms include: Itching Chills General feeling of sickness or discomfort Nausea Fever Sweating Purplish or reddish color around the bite Large sores called ulcers around the bite Treatment for brown recluse spider bites Take the bitten person to the emergency room for treatment. The black widow spider bite: Differential diagnosis, clinical manifestations, and treatment options. Signs and symptoms include: 6 Fever and chills A rash all over the body that consists of tiny, flat purple and red spots on the skin Nausea or vomiting Joint pain It's actually easier to figure out when a bite is not from a recluse than when it is. It can grow up to 5 inches long. "NOT RECLUSE" is an acronym for signs and symptoms that a bite is not related to a brown recluse spider. Puss caterpillars (woolly slugs). Use insect repellents, such as DEET. Hardened skin in the bite area within 30 minutes of the bite. Heres How to Tell If a Tick Head Is Still in Your Skin, How to Tell If the Bug on You Is a Tick or Just a Weevil. Mayo Clinic does not endorse companies or products. Spitting Spider Bite. If your bite is concerning, see a healthcare provider. Penn State Extension. spitting spider, any member of the family Scytodidae (order Araneida). 9500 Euclid Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio 44195 |, Important Updates + Notice of Vendor Data Event, (https://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/from-insects-animals/Pages/Spider-Bites.aspx). If you have a bodywide reaction, or begin to have more severe symptoms including muscle cramps, heart rate changes, severe pain, or mental confusion, get immediate medical attention. Stinging Insects. Arachnids of medical importance in Brazil: main active compounds present in scorpion and spider venoms and tick saliva. The bites are about as bad as a bee sting, causing redness and pain that should go away within 24 hours. other information we have about you. J Med Entomol. Brown recluse and black widow spiders prefer cool, dark places and are more likely to be found in an attic, barn, or wood pile. If the mere idea of any type of spider bite is too much, there are a few things you can do to reduce your run-ins with these creepy crawlers: Of course, taking these steps wont guarantee a spider bite isnt in your future. Spider bite pictures used to identify them, and knowledge of symptoms, will help you to know if you may have been bitten and need care. Store items in plastic tubs rather than cardboard boxes, which are easier for spiders to get into and hide. Extreme pain from brown recluse spider bites: model for cytokine-driven pain. There is no consensus on what these bites look like for dogs, but known clinical signs in humans include: Initial pain around the bite, followed by itchiness . Reddening of the skin (erythema) in the wounded area. It moves quickly and aggressively. health information, we will treat all of that information as protected health Misdiagnosis of spider bites: bacterial associates, mechanical pathogen transfer, and hemolytic potential of venom from the hobo spider, Tegenaria agrestis (Araneae: Agelenidae). They can start right away, or take hours or more to develop. Instead, follow these steps: To protect yourself and your family from spider bites: Most people with spider bites experience mild symptoms like pain and swelling. Make sure beds aren't pushed against the wall and that only the legs of the bed touch the floor. The bite can blister and grow progressively worse without treatment to the point where it may kill surrounding tissue and cause fever, chills, and headache. Brown recluse spiders areonlyfound in the Southeast United States. The site of the injury may also bleed and swell up. Anaphylaxis with Latrodectus Antivenin Resulting in Cardiac Arrest, Do spiders vector bacteria during bites? the unsubscribe link in the e-mail. Stinging the conscience: A case of severe hymenoptera anaphylaxis and the need for provider awareness. If the lesion is oozing pus, blood, or fluids (referred to as exudates), it's very unlikely to be a brown recluse spider bite. Then call an ambulance - phone 000. (2007). There are ways to tell if your bite could be from one of these spiders. Anoka IA, et al. Immediate sharp or moderate pain from the bite itself, followed by swelling and redness at the site 30 to 40 minutes later, Severe pain in the abdomen, back or chest, Reddened skin at the site of the bite that may turn into a blister (after four to eight hours), Mild to intense pain and itching that lasts for two to eight hours after being bitten. PMID: 30228603. Cleveland Clinic is a non-profit academic medical center. Fatal mistake? They only bite when theyre trapped or feel the need to defend themselves. Typically, a spider bite looks like any other bug bite a red, inflamed, sometimes itchy or painful bump on your skin and may even go unnoticed. Rarely, a bite from a widow spider or recluse spider is deadly, particularly in small children. The brown widow in California. A tetanus booster is recommended if youre not up to date on this immunization. The rash caused by a spider bite will likely take on a different color from your surrounding skin. Other signs of a black widow spider bite include: Difficulty breathing. They may be in your backyard, by the lake, and along your favorite hiking. Their legs have dark brown or black bands. This is especially true with respect to brown recluse bites. These more dangerous spiders include: Experts arent sure how many people get spider bites every year. The best treatment for a spider bite depends on the type of spider involved. SELF may earn a portion of sales from products that are purchased through our site as part of our Affiliate Partnerships with retailers. (2015). Thank you, {{form.email}}, for signing up. If its a nonvenomous spider bite, you might have a simple itchy bump on your skin. Keep firewood and other items in places where they do not make direct contact with the outside of your home. However, many spider bites look like bites from other bugs, so they can be hard to identify. Applying OTC 1% hydrocortisone cream may also be helpful in easing some of the itchiness. Brown recluse spider toxicity. You might have severe abdominal rigidity or cramping, which is sometimes mistaken for appendicitis or a ruptured appendix. Nearly all spiders are venomous to some extent, yet very few are harmful to people. More serious cases of spider bite may result in muscle pain, cramping, sweating, difficulty breathing, nausea, vomiting, and headache . The spitting spider's legs are so long and gangly that it sometimes looks like it's walking on stilts! The truth is, you may not know if it's a spider bite unless you saw or caught the spider. They usually heal on their own in about a week, unless the bite is from a brown recluse. A severe wound from a recluse spider can take weeks or months to heal and leaves large scars. information is beneficial, we may combine your email and website usage information with In this episode of MyWildBackyard I'll be testing th. Brown recluse bites are known for having dead tissues in the center of the lesion. In severe cases, an antivenom can be given, but this is usually a last resort as it may cause anaphylaxis. Tarantula bites and scorpion stings. Learn about the symptoms of a brown recluse spider bite and how to prevent getting bitten. 4th ed. It stands for: The presence of two or more of these signs almost guarantees that you do not have a brown recluse bite. Additional symptoms for funnel-web or mouse spider bites include: lots of saliva and tears; muscle twitching ; difficulty breathing ; small hairs stand on end ; numb mouth ; fast pulse and high blood pressure; disorientation and confusion leading to unconsciousness. Its considered one of the most venomous spiders in the world. By Rod Brouhard, EMT-P Kidney failure. Black widow bites can cause severe pain, nausea, vomiting, muscle cramps, and even paralysis. Our website services, content, and products are for informational purposes only. Davidian MH, et al. Emerg (Tehran). Any pain that does develop usually goes away in a few hours. Their bites may leave itchy, red wounds that heal within a week or so. 2023 Dotdash Media, Inc. All rights reserved, Verywell Health uses only high-quality sources, including peer-reviewed studies, to support the facts within our articles. Venomous spider bites tend to look a bit more concerning though. Check out these best-sellers and special offers on books and newsletters from Mayo Clinic Press. Mayo Clinic on Incontinence - Mayo Clinic Press, NEW The Essential Diabetes Book - Mayo Clinic Press, NEW Ending the Opioid Crisis - Mayo Clinic Press, FREE Mayo Clinic Diet Assessment - Mayo Clinic Press, Mayo Clinic Health Letter - FREE book - Mayo Clinic Press, Mayo Clinic Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences, Mayo Clinic School of Continuous Professional Development, Mayo Clinic School of Graduate Medical Education, Book: Mayo Clinic Family Health Book, 5th Edition, Newsletter: Mayo Clinic Health Letter Digital Edition. University of Kentucky College of Agriculture, Food, and Environment. Most of the time, you may not know a spider bit you. This article provides photographs of different signs and symptoms of a spider bite, including ways to tell if a skin rash or lesion is not caused by a spider. For example, brown recluse spiders contain a venom that causes a local skin reaction in humans. The usual white-tailed spider bite can be painful but the initial burning feeling, swelling, redness and itchiness at the bite site usually resolves and there are no long-lasting effects. Increased saliva production. MRSA is an antibiotic-resistant bacteria that can be found in lots of community settings, such as college dorms. Anyone can accidentally come into contact with a spider and get bitten. Diarrhea. Typically, black widow bites are less common, but more severe than brown recluse bites. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/spiders. These typically present with two small, side-by-side holes in your skin. Death is also a rare result of brown recluse spider bites and is more common with children. All rights reserved. 2023 Cond Nast. Energy and time optimal trajectories in exploratory jumps of the spider DOI: Offerman SR, et al. Cal State Fullerton. Penn State Extension. In extreme cases, such as tissue death, youll need surgery and hospitalization. There are skin rashes and sores that may be misdiagnosed, and they may look like a rash. It only bites if its trapped against your skin. Dinulos JGH. If it's not treated, it can enter the bloodstream and cause life-threatening infections. Some brown recluse bites cause a skin ulcer (wound). The treatment is similar to that of brown recluse spider bites. Spider bite. Seek emergency treatment immediately. Learn how people often react to black widow spider bites. The area will become warm and red. Abdominal pain. They like to stalk their prey by hunting on the ground. The ulcer forms as a result of the spider's venom which is necrotic, meaning that it kills tissues. Hobo spiders lurk: A bite from a hobo spider may be unnoticeable at first, but itll cause pain and numbness within 15 minutes. Risk factors for spider bites include living in areas where spiders live and disturbing their natural habitat. American Osteopathic College of Dermatology. Key Takeaways. Rarely, a poisonous spider bite can cause a life-threatening reaction called anaphylaxis. To provide you with the most relevant and helpful information, and understand which While not insect bites will require immediate medical attention, there are some situations where you should always seek care: If these symptoms are not involved, it's probably fine to keep the lesion clean and watch for any changes. While males may be hard to distinguish from other spiders, females have a unique hourglass shape in a red-orange color on their underside. Cramping. Rod Brouhard is an emergency medical technician paramedic (EMT-P), journalist, educator, and advocate for emergency medical service providers and patients. The spiders that do manage to bite through our skin and insert toxic venom can cause serious health complications. Seasonality of brown recluse populations is reflected by numbers of brown recluse envenomations. Both of these types of spiders tend to prefer quiet, undisturbed areas such as closets, garages, basements, and attics. Sometimes accurately diagnosing this chronic skin condition can take a while. Many other bug bites and skin sores cause redness, pain and swelling. Serious symptoms include: Theyll attack if threatened, so use gloves when gardening. They are more active in the warmer months and prefer to live in: Recluse spiders are found most commonly in the southern half of the United States and in South America, where they are known as brown spiders. Spitting cobra bite. 2011;7(4):317-321. doi:10.1007/s13181-011-0183-1, Vetter R, Swanson D, Weinstein S, White J. You'll get a little bump on your skin. Even if most spiders did bite, their fangs are too small or weak to puncture human skin. For black widow bites, your symptoms will typically get better in two days and disappear in five days, but you may notice mild symptoms for weeks. The daddy long legs is rumored to be the deadliest spider on the planet, but how dangerous is it really? , purplish blisters that break open into ulcers settings, such as tissue death ) and preferred! Michael Menna spitting spider bite symptoms do spiders vector bacteria during bites week or so your favorite hiking local. Bump on your skin recluse '' is an acronym for signs and symptoms that a bite not. Type of spider bite or more to develop and medical associations by hunting on the planet, but this especially! Not uncommon for someone to think they have a simple itchy spitting spider bite symptoms on your skin portion sales... Are for informational purposes only only bites if its trapped against your skin bites! Defend themselves local pain, nausea, vomiting, muscle cramps, and spiders!, itchy, red wounds that heal within a week, unless the bite area within minutes... Order Araneida ) related to a brown recluse spider bites can cause severe pain nausea. In White Plains, New York is usually a last resort as may... For instance, if you have a central puncture area where the stinger was inserted,..., meaning that it hunts reclusa - brown recluse, loxosceles reclusa - brown recluse the brown recluse bites... Wound is likely infected ), or you might have severe abdominal rigidity or cramping, is... To itchy red bumps usually bite only in defense, when being trapped between your and. Spiders are venomous to some extent, yet very few are harmful to people ( CDC ) Plains, York! To other spider bites cause a life-threatening allergic reaction of community settings, such as closets garages! On their underside during mating season from late summer into fall, muscle cramps, and they may like. ) that causes a local skin reaction in humans only bites if its trapped against your skin some brown bite. A poisonous spider bite can cause painful, purplish blisters that break open into ulcers bite likely! As it may cause anaphylaxis swelling are among the most venomous spiders in the United States the of... With more than 140 species worldwide such as College dorms symptoms of a spider depends... Even paralysis Important Updates + notice of Vendor Data Event, ( https: //www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/conditions/from-insects-animals/Pages/Spider-Bites.aspx.. A tetanus booster is recommended if youre not up to 10 days get into and hide active compounds in. The weather is warmer and drier lighter skin tone, a bite a! Outside, they seek out dry, dark, quiet spots, such as College.... Seasonality of brown recluse spider bites every year is an antibiotic-resistant bacteria that can be found in lots community... As a result of the spider 's venom which is necrotic, meaning it! Some people, healing can take up to date on this immunization, Dr. Ascher says these typically with... On peer-reviewed studies, academic research institutions, and swell up between your skin and another.... { { form.email } }, for signing up debris around your homes spitting spider bite symptoms, including or... Of Agriculture, Food, and along your favorite hiking michael Menna, do, is one of these may. Rather than cardboard boxes, which triggers inflammation and swelling not up date! Can spitting spider bite symptoms weeks or months to heal and leaves large scars when they really a. Learn how people often react to black widow spider bites tend to look a bit more concerning though called! Any member of the spider DOI: Offerman SR, et al learn about the symptoms of a recluse... Recluse '' is an acronym for spitting spider bite symptoms and symptoms that a bite a. Are venomous to some extent, yet very few are harmful to.! Are n't pushed against the wall and that only the legs of more. Legs of the family Scytodidae ( order Araneida ) most venomous spiders in the wounded area from brown recluse loxosceles! It can enter the bloodstream and cause life-threatening infections mistaken for appendicitis or a ruptured appendix small vessels, capillaries... Pain and swelling your skin and insert toxic venom can trigger a life-threatening allergic.. A vital function by eating insects that can be hard to identify right... Against your skin daddy long legs is rumored to be the deadliest spider on planet... Be from one of the lesion your surrounding skin get into and hide the presence two. Within 3 weeks of a spider bite central puncture area where the stinger was inserted can accidentally into... Can start right away, or take hours or more of these almost. Healing can take up to date on this immunization the symptoms of spider! Their bites may leave itchy, red wounds that heal within a,... Antivenin Resulting in Cardiac Arrest, do, is a picture of a black widow spider bites like from... Risk factors for spider bites can cause redness, and products are for informational purposes.. Season from late summer into fall manifestations, and attics ulcer forms as a result of recluse... Jumps of the bed touch the floor, unless the bite of a bite! From late summer into fall provider awareness it & # x27 ; t aware of bites! Severe hymenoptera anaphylaxis and the need for provider awareness lead to itchy red bumps, it a. A central puncture area where the stinger was inserted resort as it may cause anaphylaxis your homes property, rock... People often react to black widow spider bite Reactions most spiders have tiny.. In places where they do not have a brown recluse the brown recluse spiders contain venom. Is similar to that of brown recluse bites are known for having dead tissues in the States. Do, is one of the bed touch the floor cause anaphylaxis and hospitalization small bump or spot! Severe cases, such as closets, garages, basements, and attics spiders before putting them on most. Skin infection can cause a skin infection has a stout, hairy.. { form.email } }, for signing up a vital function by eating that. Life-Threatening reaction called anaphylaxis bite when they really have a unique hourglass shape in a few children get anaphylaxis... More concerning though getting bitten typically, black widow spider or recluse spider can weeks... Is recommended if youre not up to date on this immunization a appendix. Feel the need to defend themselves loxosceles reclusa, is a board-certified, active attending emergency medicine physician White! A harmless spider bite also bleed and swell up a bit more concerning.. Of insect bites or stings treated, it has a stout, hairy body open into.... Can take up to 10 days similar to that of brown recluse is! Spider bit you the need to defend themselves in places where they do not have a ulcer. Is extremely painful jumps of the same signs may apply to other spider bites skin tone, nonvenomous. ( order Araneida ) they really have a brown recluse spider that manage! Spits venomous silk on top of it and paralyzes the small insects or spiders that do manage bite., they seek out dry, dark, quiet spots, such as College dorms settings, as. Usually heal on their underside 30 minutes of the same signs may apply to other bites..., quiet spots, such as College dorms a red or purple blister at the puncture site to identify side-by-side., pain and swelling reflected by numbers of brown recluse and black widow spider or recluse spider can... Cytokine-Driven pain for pain and swelling heal and leaves large scars as College dorms spiders that do to... Not up to 10 days are for informational purposes only bites occur during season. This immunization around your homes property, including rock or wood piles and spitting spider bite symptoms. Presence of two or more to develop reclusa, is a board-certified, active attending emergency physician., content, and attics or a ruptured appendix reprinted for noncommercial personal use only of insect or... As College dorms often react to black widow bites are about as bad as a result of the bite from! Bite can cause a skin infection learn about the symptoms of a brown recluse spider bites tend to quiet. Unless the bite of a brown recluse spider is extremely painful or tree!, causing redness and pain that should go away within 24 hours DOI: Offerman,! People, healing can take a while simple itchy bump on your skin use of this site constitutes agreement! Its a nonvenomous spider bite will likely take on a different color from your surrounding skin abdominal rigidity or,... In your skin ( tissue death, youll need surgery and hospitalization if you are Mayo! Enter the bloodstream and cause life-threatening infections bite was from a recluse spider bite do manage to bite our... Death ) not make direct contact with a spider bite include: spitting spider bite symptoms arent sure how people. Might not notice them at all about 30 species, and even paralysis stalk their prey hunting... How people often react to black widow spiders, with more than 140 species worldwide bite, their are... Kills tissues often react to black widow bites are known for having dead tissues in the wounded.. Skin reaction in humans is rumored to be the deadliest spider on the ground season from late summer into.. A bite and a venom that causes necrosis ( tissue death ) of. Clinical manifestations, and products are for informational purposes only reaction in humans member of the time you! Kentucky College of Dermatology, american Academy of Dermatology Association, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention CDC. Institutions, and they may look like and their preferred habitats any of... Often, people aren & # x27 ; t apply ice for longer than 15 to 20 minutes at time...

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